100 discredited, self-interested and/or deluded "scientists" question climate change

The great Groucho Marx used to say that he would never join a club that would accept him as a member. It's amazing that no hint of such pride can be found among the signatories to the latest letter advocating inaction on global warming.
Who, really, would want his name to appear on a list that included the likes of Dr. S. Fred Singer or Dr. Tim Ball, men who have made truth telling a hobby rather than a habit, men who take money directly or indirectly from energy companies (see here and here) and then go on to practice public relations, while calling it science?
This new letter, addressed to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon, contains a predictable list of "usual suspects," people who have signed such petitions in the past. Check this new batch against the signatories to an earlier letter (to Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper) and you will see a predictable overlap. Click further on the DeSmogBlog Denier Database, and you will find the many occasions on which these "scientists" are actually public relations types indebted to the energy industry. See also the number of occasions on which the word "emeritus" pops up, indicating that that academic in question has done impressive work in his or her career - but not lately.
That latter comment is admittedly churlish, for some of these people (well, Richard Lindzen, at least) have, indeed, enjoyed impressive careers. But even these are stepping forward at a critical time in human history - and in many cases stepping outside their personal field of expertise - to advocate inaction on an issue that the latest science demonstrates is a danger to the habitability of plant earth. These signatories would have us throw caution to the wind on the basis of ... what? ... the threat that 5,000 years from now we may tip back into a global cooling cycle?
This is unreasonable, reckless and, in cases like Singer and Ball, corrupt. Again, you would think that a proud scientist might have declined the "Groucho" glasses and run for cover.













AS IN THE DAYS OF THE TOWER OF BABEL....
Are we communicating as if we are living in a modern day Tower of Babel? Is our unbelievable failure to communicate reasonably and sensibly about whatsoever is somehow real, and to widely share adequate understandings regarding both how the family of humanity "fits" within the natural order of living things and what are the limitations of the planet we inhabit, in evidence here and now?
Perhaps the human community is indeed in a serious predicament, but only in part because of the objective biological and physical circumstances defining our distinctly human-driven predicament. The global challenges in the offing are further complicated by our incredible failure to communicate effectively about the potentially pernicious results derived from having recklessly grown a soon to become patently unsustainable, colossal global economy, one that we have artificially designed, conveniently constructed, and unrealistically expanded without regard for the requirements of biophysical reality.
Could it be that the current gigantic scale and unchecked growth rate of the global economy is unsustainably driving both per human over-consumption and unrestrained human population growth toward the point in human history when the willful, relentless, unregulated growth of consumption, production and propagation of the human species precipitates the collapse of Earth's ecology, even in these early years of Century XXI?
Steven Earl Salmony
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population, established 2001
http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/
From one thing to another,
did you notice that the global sea ice area is larger than normal (1979-2000 mean) right now?
See http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/global.daily.ice.area.withtrend.jpg
Hi: This is truely a great
Hi:
This is truely a great read....
The View of Bali from Lord Moncton:
It illistrates what true Farce this whole thing is:
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/MoncktononBali2007.doc
AGW is so far off real science it is becoming the joke of the century.
For a somewhat more sober
For a somewhat more sober view of Moncton's antics in Bali see:
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2007/12/monckton_watch_2.php#more
Andrew Dessler had a long
Andrew Dessler had a long standing invitation for someone to debate him on the issues and Tim Ball seemingly accepted this.
The great debate was going to take place yesterday. But Ball didn't turn up and apparently couldn't be reached over the phone.
Did he have cold feet? Why would he? As far as I am aware he no longer has a reputation to lose and thus he can say whatever he likes. Most of his listeners wouldn't be able to tell a furphy from a fact, the kind of thing Moncton relies on. So if the idea is to contribute to the public uncertainty about climate change, the session with Dessler could have been very productive for him.
That is why I found Dessler's acceptance of Ball as a debating partner somewhat unwise.
Gore is not falling into the same trap as far as Moncton is concerned. Good on him.
Monckton finds another
Anonymous opinion, of course, is not even worth the bits on disk it consumes.
Some of us have studied Monckton more than enough to ignore anything he says.
If *you* think Monckton's opinions have anything to do with science, I assume that when you or your family are ill, you consult astrologers, not doctors. Even flipping a coin is right half the time.
Translation
"Some of us have studied Monckton more than enough to ignore anything he says."
To translate from the common argot of Global Warming cultists into English, what John Mashey is actually saying is:
"Lord Monkton is a big poopy-head because he says things I don't like and I'm not going to listen, LALALALALALALA!!!"
They do this quite a lot, if you've noticed.
No. Monckton is unqualified
No. Monckton is unqualified to comment on AGW as a self-proclaimed "expert" in climate science. His absurd views can never and will never trump the expertise of a James Hansen, Michael Mann, Ben Santer, or Andrew Weaver. That the "deniers" consider him to be a reliable source is just as laughable as their consideration of science-fiction novelist Michael Crichton to be a climate expert.
How odd?
Strange that you Global Warmenistas never seem to worry about lack of expertise when the likes of Al Gore, David Suzuki, or Sheryl Crowe are holding forth on the subject?
They consult the experts,
They consult the experts, unlike the lying and ignorant rightwingers and denialists.
Which "expert did Sheryl Crow consult?
VJ, you're foaming at the mouth again.
Careful not to dribble on your keyboard.
Troll. Bore.
Troll. Bore.
It's the vulgarity
that I find so off-putting, but at least he's consistent. You can always count on Rob for a "lowest common denominator" comment.
You're joking, right?
You seriously think the lowest common denominator in vulgarity hasn't been reached by comments like this?! --
"They consult the experts, unlike the lying and ignorant rightwingers and denialists."
Nice to see the kind of shrill boneheads represented by the Global Warming cult.
Please continue.
Let's just say
that when I see that you have posted a comment, I have a pretty good idea that the level of discussion is about to take a nosedive. You always seem to enter the room swinging at everything in sight. Describing other posters here as dribbling, foaming at the mouth, developmentally challenged, shrill boneheads -- do you really think that is going to incline anyone take you seriously?
You're a self-important little man, Rob. Taken all together, the substance of everything I've seen that you have posted at this site over the months can be summed up in one sentence: you have made up your mind and no amount of evidence will ever change it. We get it. Now go away.
Such eloquence!
I am in awe, Rob. But it's true, that having been following this type of "comments" conversation at various sites for several years, one learns a great deal about who has a grip on the situation, and who is just pushing a cannon around on the deck to see where it rolls.
Monkton is what he is, John Mashey is what he is, and you, sir, are a troll.
A faithful WARMIST making a
A faithful WARMIST making a deprecatory comment about consulting astrologists? That's hillarious. Made my day!
But the sea-ice *volume* is
But the sea-ice *volume* is less.
I think letters like this
I think letters like this are truly wonderful.
1) They put people on record for posterity.
2) In an Internet world, they are not only on record, they are on highly-visible record, easily accessible, which was not so true pre-Internet. Also, these records will last a long time, particularly as multiple copies get made and scattered around.
3) We all know people (of any viewpoint) can be misquoted or partially-quoted in a press interview, and people can legitimately claim that they've been misinterpreted. Likewise, information written for one audience may get misinterpreted elsewhere, which happens all the time to scientific papers.
But, if someone signs a letter like this, presumably:
a) They've read what they're signing.
b) They understand it.
c) They area willing to support it with whatever reputation they have.
d) They willing to have this on the public record for the rest of their lives, and their children's live.... and be remembered for it.
4) I recently added this post:
http://www.desmogblog.com/gore-takes-post-with-investment-firm-vows-to-donate-salary-to-climate-protection#comment
which mentioned how a Venture Capitalist's 15-year-old daughter got him interested in climate change.
5) One thing I'm curious about: does anyone know if any of these signers have children, nieces or nephews?
Further, I wonder if any of these relatives have read their statements. Assuming the signers really support what they said, it would be nice if each sent a copy of the letter to their younger relatives, perhaps with an attached preface like:
"For your future benefit, I've done everything I could to help stop the world worrying about climate change. You'll live longer than I will, so hopefully you'll get to see the results of my efforts, and you'll know that your life is better as a result."
Laughung out loud
Not once have they gotten the computer models for these sky is falling predictions that have become your religion to give the same results twice.
Your "scientists" have created a religion out of global warming caused by man.
As more and more scientists shine a light on the LACK of PROVABLE EVIDENCE that the high priests of your religion spew out, the more and more the public can't be sold the other FANTASY that there is a consensus.
Science is MATH not committees and your math just doesn't add up
The more you rail against those that disagree with you the more you expose the foolishness of your religion to the public.
You can't convince people the world is going to flood and the temperature is going to be x degrees 100yrs from now if you can't tell them what the temp will be next Tuesday at 1pm in Times square
I don't get it...
...is your laughing supposed to be a good argument? Good math? Good science? Above I asked for scientific arguments that haven't been debunked. I got called a philistine in response. You haven't offered anything new. I want AGW to be a big misunderstanding. None of you idiots can give me any reason to think that. All you've got are re-hashed talking points, misrepresentations, and name-calling.
climate science 101
I'll suggest that it might be useful for you to brush up on the difference between weather and climate. It will certainly help you to construct your arguments in a way that is relevant to global warming.
And I always thought that
And I always thought that weather was a component of climate. Silly me.
BTW, if weather isn't relevant, why is it that, every time we have a spell of hot weather, intellectually challenged warmist propagandists get up on the barnyard fence and crow,"See, this proves it. The climate is changing, the earth is melting and it's all your fault and we're all going to diiiieeeee."
Not true. This is the
Not true. This is the media's doing. The thousands of climatologists within the IPCC never make such remarks.
Climate scientists say that one weather event does not prove nor disprove global warming. They say, however, that the rising frequency and intensity of extreme weather may be the result (and is the predicted result) of atmospheric warming. That is, the cumulative change in extreme weather severity and frequency is expected to increase with AGW. A heat wave, surprisingly strong hurricane, unexpectedly high tornado outbreak, and/or anomalously high SSTs over a whole ocean body during one year add to the concern scientists have for the effects of AGW and that AGW may be starting to become uncontrollable.
Zog, you're starting to tire me and get on my nerves. Why don't you grow up and actually think before typing away.
Thousands?
"The thousands of climatologists within the IPCC never make such remarks."
Where do you get that the IPCC panel has thousands of scientists? Hardly. The IPCC reports are written by perhaps a few dozen actual scientists.
Changing the goal posts
You have responded to a rebuttal by setting up a different argument, a typical denier method.
A little rusty on your math,
A little rusty on your math, perhaps???
The IPCC lists several hundred lead authors and coordinating
lead authors. See the following links for details:
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/press-ar4/wg1/wg1authors.pdf
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/press-ar4/wg2/wg2authors.pdf
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/press-ar4/wg3/wg3authors.pdf
Also from the IPCC web-site:
IPCC reports are written by teams of authors, nominated by governments and international organizations. They come from universities, research centres, business and environmental associations from all over the world. More than 800 contributing authors and more than 450 lead authors were involved in the writing of the AR4.
That's over 1200 right there. Add in outside reviewers and you are up over 2000 easily....
"nominated by governments
"nominated by governments and international organizations." Yeah.
Use your head. 1200 people couldn't collaborate on what to have for lunch. The 2 or 3 dozen who actually write the reports skim a little from some of the listed panelists' work and put together whatever they like. Some real scientists who were on the panel bailed out before the third report was released and had great difficulty getting their names removed from the list.
If you think that I have a jaundiced view of UN bureaucracy, you'd be right. Between 1970 and 1990, I had several consulting assignments from the UNDP (parent organization of the IPCC) and I had a ringside seat as competent and hard-working in-house scientists and engineers who died or retired were replaced by political appointees, very few of which could find their asses with both hands. Useless bureaucrats in the most derogatory sense.
Some real scientists who
Some real scientists who were on the panel bailed out before the third report was released and had great difficulty getting their names removed from the list.
Can you provide references to some peer-reviewed papers challenging global warming that were authored by the"real scientists" who bailed out of the IPCC? I rather suspect that the scientists you have in mind are third-string back-benchers who haven't published anything of note in the refereed literature in the last decade or so...
Thousands of papers have been published in the refereed climate science journals in the past decade, and precious few ( less than 0.1 percent, if even that many) have challenged the global-warming scientific consensus. The "scientists" who are now challenging global-warming can point to lots of content-free puff-pieces in popular magazines, but haven't published much of anything in terms of original research in the refereed literature.
"third string
"third string backbenchers..."
How about Lindzen, Gray, Segalstad, Christy ...
Since you, and most other warmists, are obsessed with "peer review", I'd like to point out that Gray alone has more than 100 peer reviewed papers under his belt but, that's not what makes him a great scientist. Good science stands on its merits. The academic daisy chain of peer review adds little beyond removing the most glaring bloopers. Since "daisy chain" is somewhat rude, I prefer to refer to peer review as an example of academic incest.
Case in point, Mann et. al. underwent peer review but it took a happy amateur with no particular expertise in climate or earth science but an awsome grasp of statistical analysis to demolish the hockey stick, notwithstanding Mann's failure to co-operate with him.
You weaken your case with silly hyperbole like "less than 0.1% if even that many". Clearly, you've been getting your information, not from within the scientific community but from Hogganesque proaganda pieces.
Speaking of Vincent Gray, I note that he has done something that, unhappily, more scientists will probably have to do to get their message out, over the roar of Suzukian noise. He has borrowed the warmist tactic of attack, attack, attack, and I leave you with this bit of his wisdom:
“I have been forced to the conclusion that, for significant parts of the work of the IPCC, the data collection and scientific methods employed are unsound…normal scientific procedures are not only rejected by the IPCC, but that this practice is endemic, and was part of the organization from the very beginning.”
“I therefore consider that the IPCC is fundamentally corrupt.”
hockey stick demolished?
Hockey stick demolished?
Perhaps it is good to look at the record again. This is what I wrote about it somewhere else:
Last year two reports were brought out on this politicized “hockey stick”. The earlier one, drawn up at the request of the US House Committee on Science, was drafted by a broadly based 12-member panel of the US National Academy of Science under the chairmanship of Professor Gerald North, and released on the 22nd of June. The later and shorter one, for which the House Committee on Energy and Commerce took the initiative, was composed by a 3-member panel of the Academy’s Committee on Applied and Theoretical Statistics under the chairmanship of Professor Edward Wegman and was brought out in July.
For the whole debate on global warming the two vital questions were:
(1) Is the research of Mann et all. leading to the hockey-stick graph essential for the hypothesis that the planet is currently undergoing a process of global warming that is at least in part caused by human activities?
(2) Does the idea behind the hockey stick graph that the last few decades have been the hottest of the millennium have any validity?
Answer by the North Report to question 1:
The North-committee answered this question as follows:
“Surface temperature reconstructions for periods prior to the industrial era are only one of the multiple lines of evidence supporting the conclusion that climate warming is occurring in response to human activities, and they are not the primary evidence”.
Answer by the Wegman report to question 1:
The answer in the Wegman-report does not contradict this:
“In a real sense the paleoclimatic results of MBH 98/99” (that is the original hockey stick article by Mann et al. – AB) “are essentially irrelevant to the consensus on climate change. The instrumented temperature record since 1850 clearly indicates an increase in temperature.”
Answer by the North report to question 2:
Though the North-committee was not very happy with Mann et al.’s statistical method it nevertheless held that a whole array of evidence had confirmed Mann et al.’s original result and that on the whole the idea that the last few decades had been the warmest of the last millennium (thus including the so-called ‘medieval warm period’) was ‘plausible’ (a term panel members further elucidated by saying in the press conference following the release of the report that the odds for this having been the case were 2: 1 though one can have more confidence about this for the last 400 years than for the earlier period).
Here are the relevant statements from the North report:
“As part of their statistical methods, Mann et al. used a type of principal component analysis that tends to bias the shape of the reconstructions. A description of this effect is given in Chapter 9. In practice, this method, though not recommended, does not appear to unduly influence reconstructions of hemispheric mean temperature; reconstructions performed without using principal component analysis are qualitatively similar to the original curves presented by Mann et al. (Crowley and Lowry 2000, Huybers 2005, D'Arrigo et al. 2006, Hegerl et al. 2006).”
And:
“The basic conclusion of Mann et al. (1998, 1999) was that the late 20th century warmth in the Northern Hemisphere was unprecedented during at least the last 1,000 years. This conclusion has subsequently been supported by an array of evidence that includes the additional large-scale surface temperature reconstructions and documentation of the spatial coherence of recent warming described above (Cook et al. 2004, Moberg et al. 2005, Rutherford et al. 2005, D'Arrigo et al. 2006, Osborn and Briffa 2006, Wahl and Ammann in press), and also the pronounced changes in a variety of local proxy indicators described in previous chapters (e.g., Thompson et al. in press). Based on the analyses presented in the original papers by Mann et al. and this newer supporting evidence, the committee finds it plausible that the Northern Hemisphere was warmer during the last few decades of the 20th century than during any comparable period over the preceding millennium.”
Answer by the Wegman report to question 2:
Wegman et al. did not deny that the hockey stick graph could possibly give a valid indication of the change in temperature over the last millennium – they merely denied that this graph was adequately supported by Mann et al.’s original statistical analysis. In this context part of Professor Wegman’s oral testimony before the House committee on Energy and Commerce is revealing: “I am baffled by the claim that the incorrect method doesn’t matter because the answer is correct anyway. Method wrong + Answer correct = Bad science.” (It has been argued that the Wegman committee merely showed that Mann et al.’s analysis could produce spurious results, not that it actually did).
At any case for the wider community the basic question was not about Mann et al.s competence as statisticians, it was whether the hockey stick graph gives a reasonably correct indication of the change in temperature over the last millennium. We saw that the answer of the North-committee was that this was ‘plausible’ and that the idea was at any case supported by a whole array of evidence from other authors, also those using other statistical methods than Mann et al. The answer of the Wegman-committee contained nothing that is at odds with this conclusion.
After the release of the first report reputable newspapers such as the New York Times and the Boston Globe concluded that the hockey stick graph had been vindicated. The NYT of 22nd June said: “A controversial paper asserting that recent warming in the Northern hemisphere was probably unrivaled for 1,000 years was endorsed today, with a few reservations, by a panel convened by the nation’s pre-eminent scientific body”.
The Boston Globe said a day later: “A signature piece of evidence for global warming – a compilation of data showing that a sharp rise in temperatures made the late 20th century the warmest period in 1,000years – is probably true, a national panel of scientific specialists concluded yesterday.”
As to the charge that Mann et al. had ‘cherry picked’ the data to fit a pre-conceived graph the NYT also reported that the statistical expert of the North-committee, Professor Peter Bloomfield of North Carolina State University, stated during the press conference following the release of the report; “I saw nothing that spoke to me of any manipulation” and that his impression was that the study was "an honest attempt to construct a data analysis procedure.”
In view of all this one is baffled by assertions that these two reports have “discredited” or “broken” the hockey stick, that Mann et al. had not merely used the wrong method (in arriving at the right result) but had deliberately picked out certain data to fit a pre-conceived thesis – claims one can only ascribe to an elaborate and devious PR-campaign. To provide this all with a shred of evidence the purveyors of this nonsense have seized on a particular statement in the North as well as the Wegman report, namely that one could not have confidence in Mann et al.’s suggestion that it was likely that the nineties were the hottest decade of the millennium and 1998 the hottest year. The argument of the North committee here was that the data didn’t allow such precise indications from year to year and the Wegman-committee stated in general that such an assertion was not supported by the statistical method used by Mann et al.
It is clear that we are dealing here with a subsidiary thesis and that this does not detract from the claim by the North committee, that, overall, the graph provides a plausible indication of the changes in the average global temperature during the last millennium (one may add that the North committee was super-cautious here because if it is ‘plausible’ that the last few decades were the hottest in the millennium why wouldn’t it be ‘likely’ (the word used by Mann et al.) that the decade and year that according to the thermometer were the hottest of these decades would also be the hottest in the millennium?).
The word "plausible" has
The word "plausible" has much less statistical significance then the word "probable".
The Hockey Stick was the most visible symbol of the supposedly "settled science". However, peer-review does not imply "independently verified", and when the methodology behind the Hockey Stick was scrutinized in great detail, it was found to be statistically lacking.
Further questions that have been raised are the value of tree cores as valid temperature proxies for the past. Other non-tree core temperature reconstrucions do not follow the shape of the Hockey Stick in any discernible form.
"The instrumented temperature record since 1850 clearly indicates an increase in temperature."
That is a fact that has been known for some time. It does not answer the question though of whether current temperature increases are unprecedented or unique over much longer time scales.
Paul S.: The word
Paul S.:
The word "plausible" has much less statistical significance then the word "probable".
Reply:
Mann et al. didn't use the word 'probable' but 'likely' - a term that has no statistical connotation.
Paul S.:
The Hockey Stick was the most visible symbol of the supposedly "settled science". However, peer-review does not imply "independently verified", and when the methodology behind the Hockey Stick was scrutinized in great detail, it was found to be statistically lacking.
Reply:
Whether it was 'statistically lacking' is a matter of debate. The point is that Wegman et al. didn't deny the ultimate result and that the North Committee confirmed that researchers that had used other statistical methods had come to similar results (see my letter).
Paul S.:
Further questions that have been raised are the value of tree cores as valid temperature proxies for the past. Other non-tree core temperature reconstrucions do not follow the shape of the Hockey Stick in any discernible form.
Reply:
The North committee spoke about 'multiple lines of evidence' that pointed in the same direction.
PaulS.:
"The instrumented temperature record since 1850 clearly indicates an increase in temperature."
That is a fact that has been known for some time. It does not answer the question though of whether current temperature increases are unprecedented or unique over much longer time scales.
Reply:
Agreed,but neither does it contradict it. Wegman et al. wisely steered away from this question because they were not competent to answer it. I regret that W. now seems to have been ensnared by a group of people of whom many are clearly not in good faith, to put it mildly.
» reply
Mann used the word "likely"
Mann used the word "likely" but it was touted as "settled science". In other words, the public was gravely misled about the significance of the Hockey Stick.
'Multiple lines of evidence' may point in the same direction, as you claim the North committee states, but nowhere is it stated that the other evidence is any stronger then Mann's work. Mann's work was peddled as the most definitive, and authoratative temperature reconstruction.
Lastly, Wegman did not "steer away" from the instrument temperature record since 1850. It was not within the scope of the inquiry. It is possible too that the surface record may come under closer scrutiny also.
Paul S.: "Mann used the word
Paul S.:
"Mann used the word "likely" but it was touted as "settled science". In other words, the public was gravely misled about the significance of the Hockey Stick."
Reply:
It was mainly the people at ClimateAudit who set up this straw man of "settled science", to be able to attack Mann et al. on a claim they hadn't made. The "public" was indeed misled about that.
Paul S.
" 'Multiple lines of evidence' may point in the same direction, as you claim the North committee states, but nowhere is it stated that the other evidence is any stronger then (sic) Mann's work. Mann's work was peddled as the most definitive, and authoratative (sic) temperature reconstruction."
Reply:
You obviously aren't aware of all the other work (North et al. call it an 'array of evidence') that supports Mann et al's original conclusion. North et al. refer to a few items:"(Cook et al. 2004, Moberg et al. 2005, Rutherford et al. 2005, D'Arrigo et al. 2006, Osborn and Briffa 2006, Wahl and Ammann in press), and also the pronounced changes in a variety of local proxy indicators described in previous chapters (e.g., Thompson et al. in press)".
You just keep suggesting that Mann et al. were wrong in their conclusion about the likely temperature development, as if that were generally accepted. The fetish the ClimateAudit crowd has made of this thing is well-nigh its exclusive property though the Inhofes of this world are allowed to play with it from time to time.
Paul S:
"Lastly, Wegman did not "steer away" from the instrument temperature record since 1850. It was not within the scope of the inquiry. It is possible too that the surface record may come under closer scrutiny also."
Reply:
I didn't say that. When I said that he steered away from "the question" I was obviously referring to the question as you had formulated it in the previous sentence: "the question ... whether current temperature increases are unprecedented or unique over much longer time scales." This question was not merely beyond the scope of his inquiry but beyond his competence as well.
"It was mainly the people at
"It was mainly the people at ClimateAudit who set up this straw man of "settled science", to be able to attack Mann et al. on a claim they hadn't made. The "public" was indeed misled about that."
That is dishonest. The "settled science" hammer is used all the time by supporters of AGW as a blunt instrument to suppress any questioning of AGW.
AGW supporters, and the IPCC highlighted Manns' graph every opportunity they had with almost no caveats alerting the general public to the uncertainty with the data.
"You obviously aren't aware of all the other work (North et al. call it an 'array of evidence') that supports Mann et al's original conclusion. North et al. refer to a few items:"(Cook et al. 2004, Moberg et al. 2005, Rutherford et al. 2005."
Bad science can not be confirmed by other peoples studies. And there are many other peer-reviewed temperature reconstructions with far different results then Mann's.
"This question was not merely beyond the scope of his inquiry but beyond his competence as well.
No, Wegman said the statistical methodology employed with respect to tree-ring data was not robust to support Mann's "warmest in 1000 year claim."
Wegman was well within his area of competence; Mann was not.
Paul, do you really think
Paul, do you really think you're qualified to question someone's honesty when you, YOURSELF, are so blatantly dishonest in your postings?
Paul S. Yes, let us talk
Paul S.
Yes, let us talk about dishonesty. I know of few things more dishonest that the way the ClimateAudit crowd has reacted to and reported the NAS-findings.
Not directly involved science journalists reported these findings, inter alia in the New York Times and Boston Globe, as a vindication, with some reservations, for the MBH-team - the 'hockey stick' in other words.
So did Nature. So did the New Scientist.
Anyone, who is not deprived of basic reading skills and has a thorough look at this report must come to a similar conclusion. The basic question was whether the actual temperature record was as was suggested by the hockey stick graph. The report said that this was 'plausible' (a word that has, in such contexts, a well established statistical connotation which you implicitly and dishonestly denied when you remarked of this adjective that 'a lot of things are').
The M&M crowd has however, to my amazement, been hailing this report not only as a vindication of some of its statistical quibbles but as that of the whole AGW-stance. In other words, it deliberately closed its eyes to the fact that the NAS had, rather than rejecting it, judged MBH's result 'plausible'.
The Wegman-report could not and did not deny this. It simply was beyond its competence and brief. Its -controversial- critique concerned MBH's statistical method, not the result they achieved with this (a result that has been largely confirmed by the main body of subsequent research).
As far as M&M's charge re. 'cherrypicked' data is concerned: I also mentioned, in my first letter, the report of the New York Times on the remark made by the statistical expert of the 12 member-NAS team, Professor Peter Bloomfield of North Carolina State University, who said: “I saw nothing that spoke to me of any manipulation” ... the study was "an honest attempt to construct a data analysis procedure.”
But Climate Audit has continued its campaign on this along the lines of well established PR-techniques: take a clear symbol (the hockey stick) and concentrate on one person (Mann, who was in fact a member of a three men team) who should be demonized as far as the credulity of an uninformed public allows.
Your comrade-in-arms, Tim Ball, is still sticking to this line. This is what the Globe and Mail reported on 12th August 2006:
"Prof. Ball claims that the Mann team "cooked the books," and that its blunders were confirmed just a few days previously, in a report to the Congress by the U.S. Academies of Science. "He threw out all the data that didn't fit his hypothesis," Prof. Ball says, without offering evidence to back the charge.... "I personally think [Mann] should be in jail!" "
Talking about dishonesty.
Finally:
You wrote "there are many other peer-reviewed temperature reconstructions with far different results then (sic) Mann's."
Tell me more.
For a correct sketch of the research situation the following remark made by the New Scientist of the 16th of May this year can serve:
"Most researchers would agree that while the original hockey stick can – and has – been improved in a number of ways, it was not far off the mark. Most later temperature reconstructions fall within the error bars of the original hockey stick. Some show far more variability leading up to the 20th century than the hockey stick, but none suggest that it has been warmer at any time in the past 1000 years than in the last part of the 20th century."
Your remarks have already received more attention than they deserve so this is my last reaction to them.
"The basic question was
"The basic question was whether the actual temperature record was as was suggested by the hockey stick graph. The report said that this was 'plausible' (a word that has, in such contexts, a well established statistical connotation which you implicitly and dishonestly denied when you remarked of this adjective that 'a lot of things are')."
You keep coming back to the word plausible and I stand by what I said. If Mann's use of the word "likely" had no statistical connotation, as you implied, "plausible" implies even less statistical significance.
"Professor Peter Bloomfield of North Carolina State University, who said: “I saw nothing that spoke to me of any manipulation” ... the study was "an honest attempt to construct a data analysis procedure.”
Agreed. It was an honest attempt. Some would say a novel attempt. But hardly "settled science" as the IPCC and others claimed it to be.
"Most researchers would agree that while the original hockey stick can – and has – been improved in a number of ways, it was not far off the mark. Most later temperature reconstructions fall within the error bars of the original hockey stick."
And nearly all the temperature reconstructions purporting to support Mann's original conclusions include the use of the troublesome bristlecone proxies and are not truly independent of Mann's study.
You mention "cherry-picking", and it was the IPCC who engaged in this: by choosing a study that had never been properly independently reviewed to tout the message of "hottest in a 1,000 years claim". Why? Because the Hockey Stick so perfectly fit their beliefs, whether supported by solid science or not.
The WegmanReport has now been shown to be worthless
Paul S/G said: "the methodology behind the Hockey Stick was scrutinized in great detail, it was found to be statistically lacking."
Who said this Paul? Was it a so-called statistician who has recently shown that a) he doesn't appear to understand elementary statistics and b) is a member of the anti-AGW gang of liars. You asked me earlier if I was saying that Wegman was a liar. Well I'll give you a choice, you can pick which ever answer suits you (neither puts Wegman in a very good light); he is either a very poor statistician (why did he sign that letter since it is not in agreement with elementary statistics) or he is a liar. Whatever your answer is it should make you think twice before commenting on how the Wegman report "broke the hockey stick".
Since I'm sure you spend a lot of time over on climatefraudit why do you not ask them to "audit" the Wegman report in light of these new findings?
By the way, further to caerbannog's recent Wegman quote "Carbon dioxide is heavier than air. Where it sits in the I don't know. I'm not an atmospheric scientist..."
I found this quote by Luminous Beauty over on Tamino's blog: "Statistics applied without an understanding of underlying physical constraints is just noise".
http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/wiggles/#comments
I think that we have now shown that the Wegman report is now almost completely worthless because it had no underlying science and the author does not even appear to understand elementary statistics (or he is lying).
Ian Forrester
Well bully for you Ian. But
Well bully for you Ian. But Wegman did not author the report by himself. It was commissioned by the National Academy of Sciences and was accepted by them.
Face it Ian, the Hockey Stick can no longer be used to justify the statement "warmest in a 1000 years". While that statement may be "plausible" (lot of things are), it is not supportable by the presently available evidence.
You despise Wegman because he damaged one of your cherished totems that too many touted as "settled science" when it was anything but.
Keep track of the reports
Paul S/G, you are getting confused on your reports (funny how it is always much harder to stay on track when your reality is bassd on lies and distortion than when it is based on facts and truth).
The Wegman report was commissioned by Barton not the NAS. The NAS have commissioned a number of reports on AGW, including the North Report which you are confusing with the Wegman Report.
However, it doesn't matter which report or who commissioned it since they all support the science behind AGW. The Wegman Report is not science based so we no longer need to consider it.
Why do I say the Wegman Report is not science based, you may ask? Well, there are two reasons.
Firstly, statistics is to science what PR is to Business. It is an interpretation of the results and in the case of biased statisticians like Wegman, a spinning of the results to suit a political end. Sure there are good statisticians, as well as the few rotten ones, however there is now no doubt as to which group Wegman belongs.
The second reason it is not science based is that Wegman has no understanding of the science he is trying to interpret. How on earth can some one completely lacking in elementary science knowledge have any authority to make major decisions regarding the science of AGW?
The only comment of significance he made regarding Mann et al's work was that they should not have selected the statistical method they used (PCA). This turns out to be merely an opinion from some one who is even incapable of applying simple regression analysis to a simple set of data (see the letter he recently signed for confirmation).
When you choose other methods you get the same results which shows then Wegman's opinion was either completely wrong or he was spinning his report.
The science was settled over ten years ago, but keep on tilting at your windmills, they just make you and your arrogant band of AGW deniers/liars look even more ridiculous.
Ian Forrester
'"third string
'"third string backbenchers..."
How about Lindzen, Gray, Segalstad, Christy ...'
Exactly.
Below the Line
Zog - keep your comments clean or you will be blocked from posting.
Clean?
I suggest you check some of your supporters' comments - it is basically impossible to have a different opinion here without being subjected to name calling and insults.
We never use or advocate the
We never use or advocate the use of swear words or graphic taunts.
Bullsh@t
"We never use or advocate the use of swear words or graphic taunts."
Yeah, right ...
"NASA withheld all their internal documents so I filed an appeal. Last July, I got my response: Bupkis (that’s Yiddish for goat shit)."
http://www.desmogblog.com/foia-nasa-dscovr-my-acronym-hell
I think you will find
that the remark quoted was from the text of an article, and not part of a comments dialogue where participants start slinging expletives at each other. It may be in questionable taste by some standards, but it isn't abusive.
huked on foniks
What part of --
"We never use or advocate the use of swear words or graphic taunts."
do you not understand?
But liar, fraud, ignorant fool,
etc etc (of course without substance) is perfectly ok?
Really, if Desmogblog wants to be taken seriously, you do need to clean up among your posters.