Kevin Grandia | May 15, 2008 By Kevin Grandia • Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 13:04 Tweet MAIL PRINT Solomon at least admits that the whole exercise is a parlour game, a work of sophistry. Check out DeSmog Senior Writer Richard Littlemore's column in the Vancouver Sun today, in response the column written last week by Mark Milke on Lawrence Solomon's book, The Deniers. Tags: vancouver sunlawrence solomonThe Deniers: The world-renowned scientists who stood up against global warming hysteriapolitical persecutionand fraudmark milke Tweet EMAIL PRINT SUBSCRIBE Kevin Grandia's blog ‹ PREVIOUSPolar Bear Listed as a "Threatened Species" by the US Department of the InteriorNEXT ›Clean Coal talking point: "Near Zero-Emission Free Electricity" View the discussion thread. Comments Walkswithcoffee replied on Thu, 2008-05-15 14:16 Permalink All, Mark Milke has *zero* All, Mark Milke has *zero* scientific training and is a political science major. Mark, just because you read it from another political science major doesn’t mean you have to believe it. Cheers, Coffee Zog replied on Thu, 2008-05-15 17:34 Permalink Coffee, And ink-stained Coffee, And ink-stained wretch Littlemore, of course, just oozes scientific expertise. Bwwwaaaaaaaaaa! Stephen Berg replied on Sat, 2008-05-17 12:34 Permalink ZOG, you and your ilk prove ZOG, you and your ilk prove how morally bankrupt your position is. It’s all about the money for you, isn’t it? The planet be damned. Time for you, Rob, Harold, and the others to get an attitude adjustment and think about the world around you, rather than what is in your own little circle. rob replied on Sat, 2008-05-17 13:11 Permalink Where did ZOG mention money? Apropos of nothing, Stephen Berg blurted: “It’s all about the money for you, isn’t it?” Sanctimonious people like you always say that so casually, as though you had endless supplies of money to piss away. And if you don’t, you’re pretty sure the rest of us do. Jeff Jones replied on Fri, 2008-05-16 08:45 Permalink Contrary Postings Warrant Study The democratic nature of internet sites like DeSmogBlog present a challenge to financial elites and monopolies, as previously public opinion was controlled through privately owned media. Citizen opportunity to add their own voices to a website is an even greater challenge. Now, the Comments section of websites like DeSmogBlog, Tyee and others are perennially dogged by a coterie of persistent naysayers. After studying a number of these “comment crashers”, they appear to have a number of interesting characteristics such as: 1. repetitive postings; 2. always negative with a contemptuous or strident tone; 3. quarrelsome; 4. joined invariably by other fellow “comment crashers”. 5. Demonstrate a lack of curiosity in the subject; 6. Reflect opinion and language mirrored by financial elites and monopolies; The position of these commenters poises their views as equal to the authors of the articles in question, as if they are hosting their own website. Which they are entitled to do, but don’t. The persistence and vehemence of this widespread occurrence is interesting, and one can’t help but query its origin. Great coverage DeSmogBlog which so many people I know REALLY appreciate. Robichaud replied on Fri, 2008-05-16 12:28 Permalink "The democratic nature of “The democratic nature of internet sites like DeSmogBlog present a challenge to financial elites and monopolies” . DeSmogBlog run by James Hoggan. James Hoggan and Associates client list They include or have included the National Hydrogen Association, Fuel Cells Canada, hydrogen producer QuestAir, Naikun Wind Energy and Ballard Fuel Cells. Mr. Hoggan, in other words, benefits from regulatory policy based on climate change science. Also sit on the David S foundation the David Suzuki Foundation’s annual report for 2005/2006 lists at least 52 corporate donors including: Bell Canada, Toyota, IBM, McGraw-Hill Ryerson, Microsoft, Scotia Capital, Warner Brothers, RBC, Canon and Bank of Montreal.The David Suzuki Foundation also received donations from EnCana Corporation, a world leader in natural gas production and oil sands development, ATCO Gas, Alberta’s principle distributor of natural gas, and a number of pension funds including the OPG (Ontario Power Generation) Employees’ and Pensioners ’ Charity Trust. OPG is one of the largest suppliers of electricity in the world operating 5 fossil fuel-burning generation plants and 3 nuclear plants. Weird challenge or is it info challenged? :-0 colinski replied on Fri, 2008-05-16 20:40 Permalink cui bono? Do you realize you’ve refuted your own argument, Robichaud? The fact that industries who wouldn’t benefit from the work of DeSmogBlog are nonetheless supporting it makes for a very strange cui bono argument. You appear to be more logically challenged than informationally challenged. rob replied on Sat, 2008-05-17 09:40 Permalink cui stupid? “Do you realize you’ve refuted your own argument, Robichaud?” No, nothing of the sort. Robichaud merely pointed out the laughable self-contradictory statement made by commentor Jeff Jones: “The democratic nature of internet sites like DeSmogBlog present a challenge to financial elites and monopolies, as previously public opinion was controlled through privately owned media.” As Robichaud accurately has shown, Desmogblog presents no challenge whatsoever to “financial elites and monopolies”, as Jeff Jones imagines. Desmogblog, by definition a commercial website run by James Hoggan & Associates Inc., a PR company, is in fact, to the contrary, privately owned media, and a tool of “financial elites and monopolies”, as Jones would have it. Thanks to loopholes in Canadian tax law, the David Suzuki Foundation is able to pass off it’s political lobbying activities as a “charity”. Cui bono? Whoever gets the tax write-offs, that’s who. Anyone who believes that the David Suzuki Foundation doesn’t actually carry out any legitimate charitable activities is free to lodge a complaint with the Canada Revenue Agency at 1-800-267-2384. Companies like Encana or IBM do benefit, at the very least, from tax deductions – never mind the PR benefits. Any of those corporations are motivated by one concern, and that is making a profit. If that means Encana has to hold their noses and cut a cheque to Suzuki, in order to help attract fickle investors, then that’s what the game requires. Suzuki certainly has no qualms about accepting money from Encana, or, what Jeff Jones comically refers to as the “financial elites”. In a perfect world Encana, Microsoft, the banks, and taxpayers would certainly cut off funding to the likes of David Suzuki, James Hoggan PR Inc., and the like. But we don’t live in a perfect world, and I’m not the president of Encana. And that’s a lucky break for Suzuki and Co. MRSA replied on Sun, 2008-05-18 21:20 Permalink Are the naysaying moles Are the naysaying moles stupid? In some cases, it looks particularly likely, but if they aren’t, they certainly conceal it well. In other cases, it’s unclear. Are the moles paid? Probably. From the prolific amounts of Blog-viating and general blogorrhoea that emanates from some, it is scarcely imaginable that they would have any time left to hold down a paying job. * Blog-viating The compulsive determination of Trolls to divert or derail the discussion of a blog away from its original subject. Bloghorrea A communicable disease widespread among trolls, once infected, they become even more obnoxious and irritating. Symptoms include a torrent of manufactured supporting ‘facts’, lies, insults, twisted logic, awful spelling and absolute refusal to admit that they might be wrong, even when presented with unequivocal proof. wilbert replied on Sun, 2008-05-18 21:32 Permalink So much HATE in one post. So much HATE in one post. Tom replied on Sun, 2008-05-18 23:19 Permalink Aw... Poor troll….or is that poor sockpuppet? Steven Earl Salmony replied on Sat, 2008-05-17 04:40 Permalink Suffering from a "Nature Deficit Disorder"? Are we seeing here evidence of what has been named elsewhere a “nature deficit disorder”? Are we witnessing the way great wealth and power are dedicated to the Fantasy of the ‘JEWEL’(known to all as “the global political economy”) and to the Denial of Earth’s Limitations, including its frangible ecosystem services and its vanishing biodiversity? Virtual mountains of scientific evidence indicate that a contradiction exists between the finite physical reality of the world we inhabit and the cornucopian fantasy widely espoused by so many economic powerbrokers and politicians assuring us Earth is a sort of maternal presence, like an ever-expressive teat at which the human species can suckle from now onward. Perhaps the contradiction between fantasy and reality is better posed in the form of a question about oil deposits. Is oil a depletable natural resource with limited availability for human consumption in space-time or is oil one resource of a planet that magically and indefinitely can supply energy sources for human benefit without regard to Earth’s make-up and relatively small size? Steven Earl SalmonyAWAREness Campaign on The Human Population, established 2001 Harold Pierce replied on Sat, 2008-05-17 07:02 Permalink Hitman The guys that run this front operation are hitmen of the Suzuki Crime Family. Don David is running real slick evironmental protection and shakedown rackets and is swindling bags of cash from a clueless and guillible public. Companies by protection by making donations to the Family so Don David won’t put out contacts on them. The public is so ignorant of biology, ecology, etc that they swallow lock, stock, barrel and beaver all the hype about the enviroment that Don David pumps outs like a Howe street hustler tauting a junior miner, who has found one fleck of gold in the middle of the Indonesian jungle. Canada is essentially unpopulated but Don David has convinced everybody that ca 33 miilion Canadian are on the verge of totally destroying about 3 trillion acres of the Great White North. I nominate Don David for the Charles Ponzi Award in the category of Best Swindler for 2008. These hitmen of DeSmogBlog get paid to do what they do. Who is putting up the cash? exusian replied on Sat, 2008-05-17 08:32 Permalink Thank you, Herald, for demonstrating how delusional and intellectually bankrupt you are so that we won’t waste any further time reading, let alone responding to your incoherent sputtering. Harold Pierce replied on Sat, 2008-05-17 09:38 Permalink It is Harold! I would be most appreciative if you would spell my name correctly! Exusian, you ain’t no imagination! My other theory is these deSmogBlog guys are PR flacks for Wall Street short-sellers and vultures who are going to make billions when the AGW bubble bursts. And it will burst! Al Gore is going to be so poor he’ll have to set up a pony ride on his estate just to buy a can of beans! And he will have to give back his Noble prize and the prize money with accumulated interest. James “Jimmy the Enforcer” Hansen with be selling hotdogs and soda pop in the Bronx! Steve L replied on Sat, 2008-05-17 14:29 Permalink Dude looks like a non-scientist How will you test your theories? PS. If you don’t like spelling errors, check your previous comment. Harold Pierce replied on Sat, 2008-05-17 16:58 Permalink Just Wait on the Corner That is real easy: Do nothing at all! Hugh Campbell replied on Sun, 2008-05-18 03:41 Permalink Sure, and suck that teat of Sure, and suck that teat of entitlement until it is dry. Harold Pierce replied on Sun, 2008-05-18 14:58 Permalink Huh? Huh? Please elaborate so this dumb ole pot-boiling organic chemist can understand? Romeogolf replied on Mon, 2008-05-19 08:55 Permalink About that teat... Virtual mountains of scientific evidence indicate that a contradiction exists between the finite physical reality of the world we inhabit and the cornucopian fantasy widely espoused by so many economic powerbrokers and politicians assuring us Earth is a sort of maternal presence, like an ever-expressive teat at which the human species can suckle from now onward. Understand that Herald? Steve L replied on Mon, 2008-05-19 09:57 Permalink Highly unscientific comments It seems you haven’t brought a scientist’s attitude to the realm of blog commentary. Your do nothing (learn nothing) approach wouldn’t be so bad if you didn’t abuse the credibility you claim as a researcher by including so much anti-informative statements in promoting that approach. Jim Prall replied on Mon, 2008-05-19 09:25 Permalink Back to the topic Okay, can anyone actually post a comment that talks about the original post? I can. Here goes. Lawrence Solomon’s column complains that he went to the Wikipedia page about Fred Singer, tried to edit it, and got his changes reverted. Poor him. He makes a big deal out of what a great and famous scientist Singer is, and how unfair his wikipedia page is. So I looked over the current wikipedia page, and its edit history. It seemed quite unlike what Solomon described - the first six paragraphs recount Singer’s science career; later sections go into his recent activism, but they did not strike me as unfair. Desmogblog has written extensively on Dr. Singer’s anti-climate activism and the wikipedia page just gives a factual account of some of Dr. Singer’s policy positions and affiliations. In the talk page, I found a lot of arguements between John G. Miles on one hand, and William Connolley and Kim Peterson on the other, over edits. I could not find any edits signed by Lawrence Solomon. While there is a USER: page for that name, there is no link for edit history there (nor much of anything aside from “test”). So we don’t really know if that is the same Lawrence Solomon or not. It’s quite possible that the Post’s Solomon tried to edit either as a guest, or under a userid other than the one that matches his full name, but I couldn’t spot anything that seemed a likely match. So, where’s the beef? Steve L replied on Mon, 2008-05-19 10:16 Permalink Good effort Jim Thanks, it’s easy to get led astray here. Which column of Solomon’s are you writing about? I have a question about the topic: What is the true story on the genesis of the book. Littlemore cites the book describing the research done by Solomon as an attempt to impress Chinese environmentalists. Milke says the “spark for the book came after an American TV reporter compared those who question the Kyoto Protocol to Holocaust deniers.” Since both reviews cover the origin of the book, it must be seen as important. But, these histories are quite distinct. I would be interested in learning more about them. Richard Littlemore replied on Tue, 2008-05-20 00:01 Permalink Origins I don’t know about Milke’s version of the origin for The Deniers, but mine comes from Solomon himself: he writes about it in the first chapter of the book. Adrian replied on Mon, 2008-05-19 15:08 Permalink Hey! Thanks for the info Hey! Thanks for the info about these articles. I found them very interesting! I was browsing through a bunch of green websites and blogs and I came across yours and found it very interesting. There are a bunch of others I like too, like the daily green, ecorazzi and earthlab.com. I especially like EarthLab.com’s carbon calculator (http://www.earthlab.com/signupprofile/). I find it really easy to use (it doesn’t make me feel guilty after I take it). Are there any others you would recommend? Can you drop me a link to your favorites (let me know if they are the same as mine).