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G8 to gauge cost of species loss from climate change

The ministers conducted deliberations during a two-day meeting in the eastern German city of Potsdam. Also in attendance were ministers from Brazil, China, India, Mexico and South Africa.

Germany’s environment minister said 150 species were lost to extinction every day, and that loss of plant and animal species was an economic disaster fuelling poverty in many areas.

The Stern report estimated that climate change could cost between 5% and 20% of annual gross domestic product.

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#49174
Steve Latham. +0; Fri, 2007-03-16 10:31; A strange turn of events
Steve Latham (not verified)
For so many years, some in the environmental movement were against putting a dollar value on species loss. At least, as I remember from my environmental ethics class, there was concern that putting a dollar sign on species was a way of giving up on moral arguments about intrinsic, inherrent value of species in favor of an extrinsic cost-benefit analysis. In other words, just because we can't make money off of some species (not all of them are going to be the key to a miracle cure) doesn't mean that someone who could make a greasy buck by making it extinct should be allowed to do so. I'm not sure I'm any more comfortable putting a dollar value on species now.
#49586
BCH. +0; Sat, 2007-03-17 07:39; Dollar value ...
BCH (not verified)
Just a somewhat different perspective ...

It is a simple truth that there are more worthy causes than there are resources to fully address them. Like it or not, we need to assign priorities to the causes that we will address and face the fact that some of those further down the list will not be addressed.

Various organizations have identified hundreds to thousands of species that face some degree of risk. To launch programs to protect all of them would be prohibitively expensive. We simply don't have the money. We can allocate some resources (i.e. money) and try to save all of them but the likely result is that it will be mere tokinism which may make us feel better but will be too little to have any measurable effect. Assigning a "benefit" to protection of species is not a matter of someone "... make[ing] a greasy buck ..." from their extinction. It is a necessary measure if we are to allocate the limited resources we have to effective programs to save those we can save.

Given that the constraint is on money (or what we can buy with it,) we are pretty much driven to using a dollar value as the decision criteria for where those limited resources are applied.
#49664
Steve Latham. +0; Sat, 2007-03-17 12:49; triage or outside the box
Steve Latham (not verified)
BCH, to argue my point further: the question is not whether or not to figure out costs and benefits. The question is whether or not to act in a moral way. Acting in a moral way does not always cost money; sometimes it saves money. In terms of 'saving the environment,' acting morally often means NOT expending energy ($$) to do things. When this argument is brought up, then developers or whomever will cry about 'opportunity cost'. What they inevitably end up saying is that we have to allow the destruction of nature to make the money so that we can save nature. It's easy to fall into that empty thought pattern if one puts dollar values on everything.

Here's something sombody said sometime that may be helpful: Economic considerations are a wonderful way to figure out the most efficient way to steer the ship from the harbour to some destination. Economics is, however, a lousy way to choose that destination.
#51123
BCH. +0; Tue, 2007-03-20 06:50; Acting morally ...
BCH (not verified)
If there is a proposed action ... moral or not ... that will be effective and demonstrably costs nothing then I don't know of anyone that would oppose it. I also don't know of any proposed project that meets that description.

Further ... whose "morals" exactly? Yours? Mine? GW Bush's? David Suzuki's? We all make the assumption that our moral position is superior but without some agreed basis for decision making, concerted action by the larger group will never happen. I'm not comfortable with accepting any of the above sources of "moral" perspectives as the best one to use ... my own excepted of course.

Ultimately any action that will have some effect (environmental or otherwise) is going to consume resources of some kind (materials, manpower, etc.) To mangle your metaphor even more ... economics may not the way to select the destination but it will tell you if you can afford to go to there.

I for example believe that it is immoral to deny a third of the world's population access to clean water, sanitation, proper medical care and economic development.

Major environmental NGOs like Greenpeace, The Sierra Club and WWF disagree and actively oppose development in the third world out of some "moral" obligations to preventing AGW for future generations or the saving the environment.
#142405
Lance Hubbard. +0; Fri, 2007-12-21 18:42; Bethany Hampton
Lance Hubbard (not verified)

aniselike meibomian enanguish sexlike presumptively toxicant oxyhydrogen fringilloid
Shakespeare Morris Men
http://www.awriteshop.com/

#49533
Johan i Kanada. +0; Sat, 2007-03-17 00:28; D or F?
Johan i Kanada (not verified)
The Stern report card: "If a student of mine were to hand in this report as a Masters thesis, perhaps if I were in a good mood I would give him a 'D' for diligence; but more likely I would give him an 'F' for fail. "There is a whole range of very basic economics mistakes that somebody who claims to be a Professor of Economics simply should not make."
#49666
Anonymous. +0; Sat, 2007-03-17 12:55; lathamorama@gmail.com
Anonymous (not verified)
And yet, it's the best review of the costs there is. Scare mongers keep printing headlines about how reducing CO2 output will bankrupt the Earth (just as a more vigorous version of how they complained about the clean water act and the ban on CFCs), but those projections have never been critically evaluated. All the people who supposedly are skeptical of climate science never seem to apply their skepticism to such reports.
#50210
Drew. +0; Sun, 2007-03-18 16:27; Some predictions,
Drew (not verified)
like some scientific studies, are more equal than others. What I love is when people who claim to be upholding "science" use a highly unscientific selection of the science to uphold.
#50245
me. +0; Sun, 2007-03-18 19:52; but they are the same people!
me (not verified)
Agreed, Drew, that CO2 emission reductions are more likely to result in negative economic consequences in the short term than some other things. You complain about an unscientific selection of examples -- how representative do you expect a sample of 2 to be? Also, this wasn't about science (duh), it was about economic projections in the media. Finally, look at who the people were who argued against CFC controls. They are many of the same people (Tim Ball, Fred Singer, etc). Perhaps you should reconsider whether or not the example was relevant!
#50123
DanJ. +0; Sun, 2007-03-18 14:38; look again
DanJ (not verified)
That quote from Richard Tol is buzzing around the web, and is funny not only because a Master's thesis is acceptable or not, and typically not be rated as D or F (even a C is a failure in graduate school, and that is for classes, not the thesis). More to the point, is he is an independent judge. He has a previous result that looks very questionable now, in the light of not only Stern's report, but many others:

Tol, R. 2002. Estimates of the Damage Costs of Climate Change. Part 1: Benchmark Estimates

Environmental and Resource Economics Volume 21:47-73

Abstract: A selection of the potential impacts of climate change – on agriculture,forestry, unmanaged ecosystems, sea level rise, human mortality, energy consumption, and water resources – are estimated and valued in monetary terms... Using a simple sum, world impact of a 1 ̊C warming would be a positive 2% of GDP, with a standard deviation of 1%. Using globally averaged values, world impact would be anegative 3% (standard deviation: 1%). Using equity weighting, world impact would amount to 0% (standard deviation: 1%).

Good grief.
#49696
Denierist. +0; Sat, 2007-03-17 20:00; Risking Hypothermia to Protest the Weather
Denierist (not verified)
#50036
Stephen Berg. +1; Sun, 2007-03-18 12:31; Come on! That's wet snow

Come on! That's wet snow and they're all dressed appropriately. You can't get hypothermia doing that!

You're going to have to try better than that!

#50166
Ethan Greenheart. +0; Sun, 2007-03-18 15:37; Oh, well then it's just more
Ethan Greenheart (not verified)
Oh, well then it's just more proof that protesting actually can change the weather.

Keep up the good work, protestors!
#141925
Polly Todd. +0; Wed, 2007-12-19 20:12; Arlene Jensen
Polly Todd (not verified)

ceratitis accent recenter uncontinuous getup kamala withholder decene
Cobb's Hill Vineyard
http://www.chiltons.com/

#50830
Romeogolf. +0; Mon, 2007-03-19 20:55; Who needs climate change to decimate species?
Romeogolf (not verified)
Looking at the state of the world's fisheries, reefs, and tropical rainforests, it is clear we're doing a fine job obliterating species all by ourselves.

I have no problem looking at the environment in monetary terms. It's time corporations started putting a value on clean air, clean water, and functioning ecosystems. They have been left off the balance sheets for too long and it's showing.

I wouldn't invest in a company that doesn't take these things into consideration. To ignore natural capital and global warming is reckless and threatens the long-term viability of a venture. That's bad business.

About the climate cover-up

About the climate cover-up

Democracy is utterly dependent upon an electorate that is accurately informed. In promoting climate change denial (and often denying their responsibility for doing so) industry has done more than endanger the environment. It has undermined democracy.

There is a vast difference between putting forth a point of view, honestly held, and intentionally sowing the seeds of confusion. Free speech does not include the right to deceive. Deception is not a point of view. And the right to disagree does not include a right to intentionally subvert the public awareness.

Although all public relations professionals are bound by a duty to not knowingly mislead the public, some have executed comprehensive campaigns of misinformation on behalf of industry clients on issues ranging from tobacco and asbestos to seat belts.

Lately, these fringe players have turned their efforts to creating confusion about climate change. This PR campaign could not be accomplished without the compliance of media as well as the assent and participation of leaders in government and business.

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