The Case for NOT Wrestling with Pigs

Mon, 2008-08-18 05:47Richard Littlemore
Richard Littlemore's picture

The Case for NOT Wrestling with Pigs

James Hansen, head of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, offers this as a reason for scientists to decline public debates about climate change:

... public discussion of global warming is befogged by contrarians, whose opinions are given a megaphone by special interests that benefit by keeping the public confused. Some of the contrarians were once scientists, but now they behave, at least on the topic of global warming, as lawyers defending a client. Their aim is to present a case as effectively as possible, citing only evidence that supports their client, and making the story appear as favorable as possible to their client. The best, the most articulate, are sought out by special interests, and even by much of the media, because the media likes to have “balance” in its coverage of most topics – and especially this topic because special interests have influence on the media.
The barrage of e-mails that I have received from the public highlights another aspect of the global warming story: it is now very political. The people sending these messages are not generally scientists, even though in many cases they parrot “scientific” statements of contrarians. In their opinion these matters should be discussed in you-tube “debates” between scientists and contrarians. My guess is that scientists may not fare very well in such a format.

Hat tip to AccuWeather blogger Brett Anderson. And click here for the complete text of Hansen's recent "Trip Report," which also includes this quote as well, in a section entitled: How Science Works:

One of the books about Richard Feynman (can’t find it now) has a story something like this. When he started to work at Los Alamos on the Manhattan project he was essentially a post-doc. In an early meeting, led by one of the physics giants of the first half of the century, they were discussing possible interpretations of some data. One possibility was described and seemed to Feynman to be clearly correct, but they continued to go through many alternative suggestions and Feynman was getting more and more antsy: why didn’t the leader restate the evidence for the logical interpretation? Eventually the leader stood up and said something to the effect “o.k., it seems that so-and-so’s explanation is still best, let’s get to work.”

Comments

Hmm. When I formulated the "Sue Us" Petition ( http://tinyurl.com/6265jx ), I did mention that requests for debate should be ignored as they're simply pointless.

The big debate that really matters will be a debate in parliament on whether to pass the next cap-and-trade bill. And curiously enough, that's the kind of debate that inactivists don't want to engage in. (Remember, Lieberman-Warner was killed by a filibuster.)

"The big debate that really matters will be a debate in parliament on whether to pass the next cap-and-trade bill. And curiously enough, that's the kind of debate that inactivists don't want to engage in." - FRANKBI

I agree that Pariament too is the only place that really matters on this issue. And it is here that alarmists have been clobbered. If Canadians as a whole really, really, supported action on AGW, we would have a serious cap and trade system already.

Paul *.*, so explain to me why L-W had to be killed with a filibuster?

Explain that please?

We can have that debate after the next election - when the congress critters run on how $4.00 a gallon gasoline isn't nearly enough and ".. . if I'm elected we will strive to make it $5.00, $10.00 or whatever amount per gallon it takes to end the scourge of carbon fuel forever."

Watch the constituency evaporate.

What in hell would you expect him to say?
Every debate ever had on the subject was clearly won by skeptics.
There is so little real evidence or science to support the thin AGW hypothesis that no sane alarmist would willingly debate it. (well few anyway)
Hansen's latest rant simply drives home the case the skeptics have been making all along.

No Science = No Debating.
The only tactic left to them is to shout louder and try anything to censer discussion.
Is this familiar to anyone? Say from China or South Korea?

So explain to us why L-W had to be killed with a filibuster?

And why Monckton hasn't yet got around to suing Gore and Hansen despite repeatedly screaming that he would?

If Monckton truly won the debate in an honourable way, shouldn't that be even more reason for him to actually sue?

because too many Democrats wanted out of the AGW boondoggle and Harry and Nancy really didn't want to have that debate anymore then Hansen Gore or Schmidt want to have it.
Because they know they'll get their ass handed to them just like Littlemore did the otherday.

The debate on science is among scientists in the peer-reviewed literature. It's not a perfect system but it works better than most things in terms of expanding human knowledge of natural properties. That said, the debate about what to do in the face of various likelihoods (i.e., risk management) is something that ultimately comes down to public will and that is reason enough to engage like Richard did. It's important to remember, though, that one should be able to wrestle with a pig and still come out smelling unlike a pig. I believe that takes practice.

I'll say it again: it's not just about public will, it's also about politicians' perception of what this "public will" is: http://tinyurl.com/5fb74s .

"one should be able to wrestle with a pig and still come out smelling unlike a pig. I believe that takes practice."

Yeah it does... but even if (and that's a very big "if") such debates are useful, let's face it: how many people have been willing to put in the "practice" necessary to be a good debater (especially under nonsensical environments like the Roy Green Show)? "Practice" isn't just a word; one has to, um, actually practise.

Hi Frank, my spelling was perfectly acceptable. And regarding the Roy Green show, it's an important venue because the message still has to reach people who wouldn't want to hear it. The fact that the environment is ... let's call it 'special' ... can be useful to someone who knows how to take advantage of it. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that to use the media (note: a variety of media) effectively, you need to know who your target audience is, what message you hope to get across to them, and then figure how how you'll do that. There's no reason to practice the last thing unless you know what you're doing or hope to do with respect to the first two.

"Hi Frank, my spelling was perfectly acceptable."

Hmm... interesting... I was under the impression that "practice" is the noun spelling, "practise" the verb spelling. Learn something new every day. :)

"The fact that the environment is ... let's call it 'special' ... can be useful to someone who knows how to take advantage of it. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that to use the media (note: a variety of media) effectively, you need to know who your target audience is, what message you hope to get across to them, and then figure how how you'll do that."

Well, I won't exactly disagree with that, though I don't agree completely either. Anyway, it seems that you just touched on a bigger issue, namely how to (in general) communicate effectively with the public and the politicians on global warming...

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http://frankbi.wordpress.com/ International Journal of Inactivism
"Al `Fat Al' Gore [is fat]" -- Harold Pierce

Has anyone seen the pics of Al Gore's brand new 100 foot custom built houseboat. Hint: it doesn't have sails.

Gore's Law strikes again!

And none of our resident inactivists have been able to explain why Lieberman-Warner had to be killed with a filibuster, and why Monckton, McShane, and Coleman haven't yet sued Gore and Hansen after screaming for several months straight that they'll be suing.

Is this "willingness to debate"?

The Lieberman-Warner bill couldn't scare up (Senators don't scare easy) enough votes to end debate.
I seems to remember the call for an abriviated debate being due to one Senator insisting that the bill be read outloud on cspan.
Another case of solar variability (sunshine) killing the climate change cockroach.

"`fillibuster' is part of the debate process"

...but only when it's initiated by a Republican. Yeah, we get the idea.

No word yet on why Monckton, Coleman, and McShane still haven't sued Gore or Hansen after yelling time and time again that they would. Maybe their unwillingness to debate in court is part of their `debating strategy' too?

Or perhaps the reason not to debate is not just that they'll lose, but that they'll be completely destroyed.
I beleive you're familiar with this situation Richard?

The best anology I can think of to debating Conservatives, Republicans, and oil industry tools is debating tobacco and Nazi proponents.
From what I can tell, deniers are functioning exactly as Nazis and tobacco here. The Nazis were militarily defeated (barely). Tobacco tools still have enough professional credentials left to represent big oil and fund Stephen Harper's and GWB's governments.
To me, the debate should be how radical should those concerned with the survival of humanity, act, if Barack Obama and Stephane Dion lose the upcoming elections. This is the debate. I believe, for starters, all lawyers and law-firms that represented tobacco and are now representing big oil, be stripped of their credentials and litigated to the point the must move to low-footprint homes. I believe a public education campaign equating deniers with nazis is prudent.
Just as Al-Qaeda's bank assets are frozen and nationalized, so should be big oil's. The debate should be about how much to punish big oil for jeopardizing the future of our species. Until the last Bali conference, I was of a forgiving opinion here. But now, existing Canada/US governments are zee Germans in the making.

Strawman sockpuppet.

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http://frankbi.wordpress.com/ International Journal of Inactivism
"Al `Fat Al' Gore [is fat]" -- Harold Pierce

Many of the contrarian campaigns challenging climate science are backed by conservative think tanks. And many of these think tanks have had a history of challenging scientific debates - with the tobacco industry.

Take the Competitive Enterprise Institute, the George C Marshall Institute or the Heartland Institute, for example.

All have run - and some are still running - debates on smoking (it's shifted to second hand smoke these days). They used (and abused) the media's need for "balance" to get their message out and confuse the public.

Indeed, so-called climate scientist Fred Singer has also spoken out as a "scientific expert" on second hand smoke.

It's the same here. I might remind you all of Frank Luntz's advice to the Republicans in 2001:

"Voters believe that there is no consensus about global warming within the scientific community. Should the public come to believe that the scientific issues are settled, their views about global warming will change accordingly. Therefore, you need to continue to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue in the debate."

and that's it. Peddle the doubt and the public will remain confused and won't call for aciton.

How about the case for democracy and public awareness? Has he forgot all about which principles our society is built upon? James Hansen need to go back to school.

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